Not High-End Enough? What Retouching Can't Fix

Jan · 0:22
Welcome back to The Curated Lab Podcast. I'm Jan and I'm here with Per. And we open up the high end industry to show how it really works, what happens beyond the craft. And today we're asking a question that sounds simple, but it isn't. What actually makes an image high-end? Per, what do you think?

Per · 0:41
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Jan · 0:41
New episodes every Thursday.

Per · 0:50
So what does make an image high end? I think there's certain factors that play a role, but to me, I think it's mostly about who you work with. Let's say a model makes or breaks your image. If the model is bad, you won't get a proper image. You might get decent image, an okay-ish image, but it's never gonna be high end. And that... that goes for the whole crew.

Per · 1:16
The selection of your crew who you work with manifests the outcome. If you have a strong crew and everybody knows what they're doing, if they're experienced and everybody is committed the same, will, or you as a crew will deliver outstanding results. And of course, I'm well aware that not everybody is already like at the top level, but I think it goes for any level that you add. gather a crew around you who is equally committed, equally motivated to create the best possible. And I personally always would recommend work with creatives or people that are slightly better than you.

Per · 2:03
You can learn from them, they challenge you, you challenge yourself, and you will elevate your work. And, but... Going back to the question, think a crew, a team around you concept is what makes an image feel high end.

Per · 2:19
Jan, what is your take? What's your experience in retouching,

Jan · 2:23
I think first I would like to quickly underline that what you said is really resonating because when you are the smartest person in in that room that you they're working with you're probably not being able to to grow as much. That's certainly true. And It's not a bad thing because you can also give you know your experience and knowledge and security to others. That's also something you should do every now and then. But when you are on when you stay open to to growing and when you actually surround yourself with people that what I what resonate even more was that they are committed and passionate about it. Because then the magic happens, you know, everybody gives their best and it's not a job that needs to be done.

Jan · 3:13
Right? I think that's also very important that you work with people that have the same motivation as you to grow and to create outstanding stuff, not to see it as something that just needs to be done. so that certainly is something that truly helps to to create great imagery. but when it comes to retouching, I think the the the key for me is not just because you know a technique or because you have retouched other images. That you need to do all of that step, steps to it's it's so important to understand and to see what the image really needs and what it needs to tell its story in the best way.

Jan · 3:54
That is something that I think retouching is all about. It's not about fixing issues, it's about enabling the image to tell its visual story best. And that can be, you know. elevating what has been already captured in scene. Because you know, sometimes as you know it better than I than everyone, is that you cannot capture everything, right?

Jan · 4:18
You you can create the the scene, you can create the light and you have the great styling and everything. Yet there's a certain invisible layer that you need to add that couldn't be captured in camera, be being maybe color grade or like a certain like touch that you give to the image that helps guide the viewer's eye to towards the message when it comes to advertising for example. It's so important to understand light and shadow, color harmonies, perception, color psychology, and these things. So when everything comes together and it's not just technical adjustments in retouching, then the magic happens for me.

Per · 5:03
Yeah, I would certainly agree. But the question is also where do you start and where does it start? Because the knowledge that you need, you won't have it from the start. Everybody starts as a beginner. I think it's so important when you start out, but still to the very day that you add your career. to still shape your taste, train your eye, gain experience, gain knowledge, and just be very aware of what high imagery is. mean, training your eye, it like going to the museum, to exhibitions, looking for inspiration online, just shaping an awareness of what high-end imagery is and why it feels so well.

Per · 5:53
could do that by grabbing your favorite photographers' images and analyzing them. Why do they resonate? Is it colors? Is it the composition? And then also going deeper, what is good composition? Learning about composition and not just photography. usually, well, it comes from the painters, from the historical painters from back in the day. Those are all routes that you can take and by doing that, you shape your understanding of visual arts, I would say. Thanks

Jan · 6:25
that's a very fair and true point. So putting yourself into the the curiosity position and observing great input because if you like doom scroll every night and you you see just the the mediocre crap coming in, and especially these days where a lot of images that you see are potentially created with artificial intelligence, you see a lot of patterns and repetition. And if you see that long enough, your brain understands that as, I don't know, the the reference point.

Jan · 7:05
And you should certainly understand that going to to see the old masters as you said, or even buying fashion magazines and and beauty magazines, or looking at like for example great websites like models.com and what was the other one again

Per · 7:23
For example, also like a scanned fashion world for like the old magazines from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, et cetera. Because eventually everything you see nowadays is built upon our predecessors and everything that came before us. So basically everything is like a remix of things that have been done before, blending into new styles that you see nowadays.

Jan · 7:51
Yes. And when we when we look at great imagery, and if you start seeing the patterns that are in, for example, great fashion editorials or beauty editorials or hair campaigns or whatnot, commercial campaigns, I think is nothing feels random, right? So everything comes together and and and serves a purpose and it's It's great to be able to identify that and you should look for that. I I certainly do want to understand why a certain image works like this and why why why image coherence in in in editorials, for example, or in campaigns is so important. And what's what makes these images coherent? Shall we maybe break that up a little bit?

Per · 8:39
Yeah, feel like the beauty and the mastery of that is also that to the random viewer, it might feel random, but everything in high-end imagery serves a purpose. Even if a blanket or a chair feels random in the image, it usually is never randomly placed. It goes back down to composition. Maybe like... that a blanket serves as a leading line into or out of the image, or it serves as a complementary color within the color scheme that you have in the imagery.

Per · 9:12
Everything is there because it serves a certain purpose. And this is something that you can look out for in high-end imagery and analyze that, why these things might be placed where they are placed.

Jan · 9:27
Yes. And the other thing is I believe that also these standards they they they evolve and change. And for example when we look at the the commercial images in the in the eighties, in the early two thousands, and nowadays, you can see a lot of difference happening. So the standard changes, yet the approach doesn't, I think. although yes, we are entering an era where Artificial intelligence makes it possible to create imagery that doesn't need that super let's say extravagant settings, sets or like like big teams all the time.

Jan · 10:15
So if you want to shoot on I don't know, on the on the top of top of Mont Blanc, for example, yeah, or on Mars. you certainly can express that kind of creativity in a fair quality. Yes, you can, but again you need to to to gather the right people around you to make that happen. Or yes, please.

Per · 10:39
have the knowledge. Because, mean, of course, you can tell an AI to do this and that, or create this and that backdrop. But if you don't have an understanding of, let's say, compositing an image, or composition in an image, and how things should be placed to make it visually appealing to the eye, then you will still get a slop. So there needs to be knowledge.

Jan · 11:02
exactly. And also the knowledge to be able to break patterns and to break rules and to to to create something that is unique and not a copy of something. And

Per · 11:14
rules are nice. mean, it's so cheesy, I know, but rules are meant to be broken. And it's just, it holds truth.

Jan · 11:22
Yes, and we can see that in in in the in the social feeds and in the commercial festivals and wherever. So things are changing, the standards are changing, yet I think a great image is where you can identify that color, for example, is controlled, light is controlled. retouch retouching is intentional and is not just done, you know. the skin is not over retouched. it is trying we we try to keep things very natural or very, I don't know, deluxe for example, when it comes to certain but it is all always with a purpose.

Jan · 12:05
So nothing is done randomly just because we can. I remember when I started out retouching I was fascinated by all the opportunities that were suddenly available to me with this pen here and the tablet. and I was doing things to the images that I felt could benefit it, but it wasn't asked, for example, right? I did I was very curious about it.

Jan · 12:30
But over time I became more and more and more intentional with this. I I think probably also learned learned to to to read an image before I retouched it. That was also a key thing. That's as as a photographer, you you as a good photographer, you know what you shoot before you shoot. You know you see the scene, right? And the same is with retouching. I love the moment when I open an image when I'm when I haven't been on set, for example. Then because then it's also a different thing.

Jan · 13:01
And I think it's very important to also understand that being involved in that kind of discussion as a post-production artist is also very important to bring another perspective in and to really discuss with the team and also get an understanding of the intention on set.

Jan · 13:17
Because if you just get an image, you don't understand everything at the beginning of your career because maybe you cannot really identify the light situation and how things have been positioned and why and so it's so important to understand all this and then you can open an image and it tells you what it wants and you you know what you have to do. But that that is a but that takes time. It it's and

Per · 13:43
It takes time. exactly. It takes time. And it usually is, I mean, you probably know this just as well as me. If you learn a new technique or discover something you didn't know before, you apply it way too much or overdo it or do it over and over again. And it's probably part of the journey. And once you gather all those tools and all the knowledge, then you have the experience and know when to use what in the imagery and what does the image need and not what do you need or want.

Jan · 14:17
Let's stop here for a second. We have a freebie for you, the High-End Image Checklist.

Per · 14:17
Twelve questions, go through them before your next shoot and before you start retouching.

Jan · 14:17
The link is in the description and now let's get back to the episode.

Jan · 14:29
let's maybe find two or three examples from from our work together or individually. can you remember when you when you started shooting fashion? were there times when you you said, Well, I did everything right technically, but yet it doesn't it's somewhat is wrong. It's maybe not Something is not catchy or I don't know, is it's too flat or whatever. Do do you remember something like that? Can you take us back into that situation?

Per · 15:02
Interestingly enough, the first things that come to my mind are not so much about photography, but also about retouching. Only few know that I kind of also started out as a retoucher or wanted to become a retoucher and learned retouching with like DVD courses and stuff like that and was retouching retouching retouching nights and days. But what I didn't know, and that's what we just talked about is I didn't know when to stop. Whereas enough, my images were just completely over retouched and had so much fun doing every pore and pixel with dodge and burn, et cetera.

Jan · 15:40
I I feel you so much, yes.

Per · 15:43
So, but I didn't notice because I was lacking the experience. And for fashion imagery, I always felt like when something was off, but I couldn't point it out. I couldn't tell what's off now. Usually it was, well, either the lighting, because it wasn't good yet, or the model wasn't good, or the styling choices were not good yet. It was usually a mix of everything together. Lack of experience, lack of taste, team building, and this kind of stuff.

Per · 16:14
But only once you gather the knowledge and experience, You can tell what it is. How about you?

Jan · 16:25
Yes, I exactly so I over-retouched almost every image just because I was excited to bring in all the techniques I knew until then. And but the other key factor is I think I only communicated with the creative team once I was finished. And then I had struggles with accepting accepting the feedback.

Per · 16:50
That's a good point, yeah. That's a very good point.

Jan · 16:52
I was personally offended. And I didn't know why. It was really weird. I'm a very cooperative person, but I gave so much of myself into that image. And when they came back to me and said, We don't really feel it. It's not it. You know, you did way too much. I said, What? You don't know. You have how can you say that? And come on. I I know every hair by name already of that girl. And why how can you say that? And yes, if I think about that, that was the hard truth that I had to accept. and but that was I guess part of the way for me. And so I learned to communicate better and to listen better.

Per · 17:38
dealing dealing with criticism.

Jan · 17:40
Dealing with criticism is such a biggie. And but also clear communication, it really understanding the brief and also asking the right questions. Because, as we said in the beginning, the good images come with good teams, and you should take advantage of having the opportunity to also ask questions to the intention to because if you are the retouch artist on a big campaign or Even if it's a small project, it's fair to ask what was your intention if you haven't been on set.

Jan · 18:14
How can I bring your vision best to life? Because you're not expected to know everything. How should you? Because everybody is involved in the process from the beginning. The stylist, the everybody, just not the post-production artist. So I one of my biggest learnings was communicate, ask the people, or if if you can, be involved in the production. It does make sense.

Per · 18:37
I think also what you mentioned is not just talking to the photographer, but also when you do, for example, beauty shoots, talk to the hair artist, talk to the makeup artist. What do they want to keep? What should be removed? think that's important.

Jan · 18:52
that they struggled with, you know, and that they were not happy with. But it if if you don't know, how should you anticipate that in the beginning? You know, in the in the later stages of your career, you will probably be able to to anticipate a lot of things, even if you worked with these people for a longer time. It's you don't need to do that all the time then. But

Per · 19:13
but still it helps to ask.

Jan · 19:15
yes, it definitely. I think it's so important to again get away from the egos and talk talk openly about this because then it becomes great.

Per · 19:26
this is always also an opportunity to challenge yourself. Let's say if you do not ask questions or if criticism hurts you bad, this is an opportunity to reflect on yourself. Why do I not ask questions? Why is criticism so hard for me to handle? And dive deeper. because there's usually different voices within yourself and behavior like that is worth exploring, I would say, because it can ultimately hinder you from a good career.

Jan · 20:01
Yes. Can you I feel that there is a personal story somewhere. Can you can you open that up?

Per · 20:09
Yeah, that definitely is a personal story. You know, I mean, I also had times where I just couldn't deal with criticism and always took it personally and felt like if someone criticizes my work, they criticize me as the human being that I am and not just the professional work. And I only had to... I mean, long story short, obviously now, I had to rediscover myself and explore things that I learned as a child and certain behaviors, certain...

Per · 20:44
How do you say in English? Beliefs, yeah, yeah. Just beliefs that I learned as a child from my parents, from people around me that I always thought were the right ones, but they ultimately weren't. So I had to relearn that and challenge myself. And well, it took me a couple of years for sure to really develop new beliefs, but it helped so much in proper communicating and eventually elevating my career. Because once I lay all those old beliefs aside and introduce new beliefs into my life, things really started to pick up.

Per · 21:27
And I think this is something that's getting overlooked so much because of course you need talent and you need excellence in your work or want to strive for that.

Per · 21:37
But there's also the other side to it, that things that lie deep within yourself. beliefs, core beliefs.

Jan · 21:47
Whoa, that sounds like

Per · 21:51
How about you? Have you always been the major communicator that you are?

Jan · 21:57
no, of course not. thinking back, well, in my in my childhood I was very silent, I would say. there were yeah, well there were there were things that scared me and growing up was was I had a few challenges by being bullied and being like as a as a young school kid being beaten up by by older guys and that really, you know, had an had an effect on me. and it took me I think until I was fifteen, maybe thirteen, fifteen, around that time when I really started playing inline hockey with my team and physically and becoming stronger and also yeah just growing up having a great group of friends and a great circle of trust that really helped me to evolve and I became more and more confident with life and things and then coming into the creative industry, coming into this let's say a wild world of creativity where people have ideas everywhere and performing whatever their their their their profession is was really inspiring and I was lucky to to have a surrounding where that was kind of fostered you know and it wasn't taken down all the time.

Jan · 23:24
although there were situations where the juniors have been like we have done it like this all the time so Don't come with these ideas. It really happened. And so I decided, no, that's that's not what I want to do. And I had great mentors that really showed me how this work is done professionally, and that was so fascinating. And one of them, shout out to Robin if he's listening, he he was he was opening this world of high-end imaging to me very much. And I I felt that when I share what I do, talk about it, help others, that it would allow me to grow.

Jan · 24:08
That was really inspiring. And I that's that's actually how I got in touch with Wacom, for example, to start working with them in in education at the same time in educating the creative community with the craft that I learned.

Jan · 24:22
And that led to one keynote and speaking gig after the other. And yeah, well if you if you talk about what you what you love and what you know, it's it's getting certainly easier than if you would talk about rocket science in my in my case, for example. so but it was about being open and sharing.

Per · 24:43
I think your example goes to show, and also my personal experience is, it's so important who you surround yourself with. that's how you say it. The people around you, have such a big impression on yourself. I mean, there's a reason why, what there's a saying, the five or six people around you, they shape you. So be very aware of who you surround yourself with and only let people into your lives, well, who elevate you, who challenge you, who make you better.

Jan · 25:19
exactly. And that is so true. And if it wouldn't have been, for example, for Anna, my wife, she She was always or is always a very bright example for me when when sh she was on her own all the time. She has never been working in a in a fixed job, so to say. She has always been self-employed and it was so inspiring for me. And she was always supporting me and pushing me and allowing me also to be vulnerable and to to explore and to evolve.

Jan · 25:50
I I will forever be grateful for this because that trust. And that freedom that she gave me was probably also a reason why I became so confident in this.

Per · 26:03
Yeah, Supportive people, inspiring people, they can be such a big leverage in your life and just elevate you to new highs. while they elevate you, you elevate others because you become better, you become more aware of yourself. It's just, it's an upward circle, I would say, or spiral.

Jan · 26:26
So when you say surrounding yourself with the right people, I think that really resonates also. And that's actually one of the reasons why we founded the lab. We we wanted to create the space where people can find one another and where they can support each other and where they can be like open, vulnerable, sharing, inspiring, whatever they feel is right for the community. And I love seeing that exactly that is happening there.

Per · 26:53
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's also why we don't just have the technical channels where you discuss lighting, retouching and so on. But we also have channels like Share Your Wins, because it's so important to celebrate yourself, to celebrate others, to share your wins, to be proud of yourself. by doing so, inspiring others to see what's possible and to grow together. We as the lab want to be your five people basically around you to lift you up and support you and help you grow. And we want to make you better.

Jan · 27:28
Yes. And now that you said there's Share Your Wins, there's also mental health, which is I think even even as as important because it's so imp it's so I think it's so valuable to be able to discuss even when you're when you had a bad experience, when you're down, when you need some motivation and when you just need someone to listen. And That is something that I truly appreciate in my life and also, of course, in the lab, that I can be as I as I am in this moment.

Jan · 28:04
And we create this safe space, and that is, I think, what we all need in these times of uncertainty and ambiguity, where everything is changing all the time and so fast. it's so important to have that kind of community. And

Per · 28:19
I agree 100%. And we invite you to join us and our community on our journey, on our mutual journey, and just grow together and have that community of like-minded people around you and eventually elevate yourself.

Jan · 28:39
Exactly. So and on a closing line, I think to to to wrap up this episode, let's let's think about the the takeaways.

Per · 28:48
From high-end imagery to deep talk.

Jan · 28:51
Yes, but as we said, it's all about the people that you work with and what shapes you. And but coming back to imagery, I think it's very important to understand that it's not thinking in effects, it that it's more thinking in in in a clear vision and intention when it comes to imagery. and it's so important to make sure that the people in the team And also the things that you bring in, like the light, the color, and also the frame and the retouching, supports the key idea of the image and of the campaign. and

Per · 29:31
always about what does the image, the campaign, the brief need and not what can you execute technically at your very best. It's just deliver the tools or the tasks that are needed.

Jan · 29:47
Yeah, so high end imaging is not about doing more, it's about doing the right things and doing them with purpose.

Per · 29:55
very well said.

Jan · 29:56
Before we go, one question for you. What's the one thing that you had to fix in post-production that could have been solved on set?

Per · 29:56
Let us know in the comments!

Jan · 29:56
If this episode was useful for you, subscribe to the show on YouTube and rate the show on Spotify and other podcasts because that's the way how other photographers and retouchers find it.

Per · 29:56
The high-end image checklist is in the description linked below.

Jan · 30:19
So, and of course, loved loved what we said about community and having the right people around you. So important. Thank you everybody for for listening. really curious to dive deeper into the next topics with you, pair, and to set the foundation of what we're doing with the curated lab. And speaking of the right people, some For the people that maybe just listened to this part, we are bringing in the right people into this discussion, to the podcast and also to the live QA sessions in the Curated Lab.

Jan · 30:56
And really looking forward to this as well. And thank you for being with us on this journey. Thank you for your interest.

Per · 31:02
Most definitely. Thank you guys so much for listening and can't wait for the next episode.

Jan · 31:08
Take care everyone. Have a great one.

Per · 31:09
Bye guys.